Slot Machines Idaho Constitution

Illegal Gambling – Frequently Asked Questions

Slot machine gaming area limitations: RS 27:372.1: Limitations on the number of slot machines operated at an eligible facility in Orleans Parish: RS 27:373: Prohibited relationships: RS 27:374: Illegal lottery devices: RS 27:375. For gaming machines that utilize account access cards to activate play of the machine, the following standards shall apply: (1) Equipment. (i) A central computer, with supporting hardware and software, to coordinate network activities, provide system interface, and store and manage a player/account database.

Over the past six years since records have been kept, the Kansas Racing and Gaming Commission (KRGC) has received an average of more than 200 phone calls and email inquiries annually. Below are answers to some of the questions most frequently asked.

Some forms of gambling are legal in Kansas, but most forms of gambling are illegal. The Kansas Constitution provides the answer to whether or not gambling is legal or illegal.

Legal Gambling: Under Article 15, Section 3 of the Kansas Constitution, lotteries and the sale of lottery tickets “are forever prohibited” unless allowed under Sections 3a, 3b and 3c and under a new amendment passed by voters on November 4, 2014. These exceptions make the following forms of lotteries constitutionally legal, with one caveat:

- Bingo and instant bingo games conducted by licensed and regulated, non-profit religious, charitable, fraternal, educational and veterans organizations;
- Horse racing, dog racing and parimutuel wagering on horse and dog races at state licensed and regulated facilities in counties where the voters have approved such racing and wagering;
- State-owned and operated lotteries, including lottery ticket sales and keno played through the Kansas Lottery, casino-style gambling at Kansas casinos where the State owns the casino games and regulates the operation of the facility (currently available at Boot Hill Casino and Resort in Dodge City, Kansas Star Casino in Mulvane, Hollywood Casino in Kansas City and Kansas Crossing Casino in Pittsburg.), and play of electronic gaming machines (such as slot machines and video poker) at licensed racetrack gaming facilities (none are currently in operation); and
- Charitable raffles by nonprofit religious, charitable, fraternal, educational and veterans organizations.

In addition, gambling at tribal casinos (casinos lawfully operated by Indian tribes) is legal in Kansas. Every other type of gambling is illegal in Kansas.

Illegal Gambling: There are several gambling-related crimes that are classified as “crimes against the public morals” in Kansas. Some of these crimes are misdemeanors and some are felonies. There are other gambling-related crimes as detailed below. Find links to the actual statutes by clicking here.

The following are public morals crimes under Kansas law:

- gambling (K.S.A. 21-6404)
- commercial gambling (K.S.A. 21-6406)
- dealing in gambling devices(K.S.A. 21-6407)
- unlawful possession of a gambling device (K.S.A. 21-6408)
- installing communication facilities for gamblers (K.S.A. 21-6404)
- illegal bingo operation (K.S.A. 21-6405)

Kansas also has nuisance statutes that make certain gambling activities illegal, including:

- maintaining a common nuisance (K.S.A. 22-3905)
- assisting in the maintenance of a common nuisance (K.S.A. 22-3905)

Gambling-related activities designated as common nuisances are:

- commercial gambling (K.S.A. 22-3901(a))
- dealing in gambling devices (K.S.A. 22-3901(b))
- possession of gambling devices (K.S.A. 22-3901(c))

There are also gambling-related crimes under the Kansas Expanded Lottery Act (KELA) and the Kansas Pari-mutuel Racing Act. These include:

- Crimes under the Kansas Expanded Lottery Act (KELA) related to the following areas:
- Wager, Loan and Credit Restrictions (K.S.A. 74-8756)
- Wagering Restrictions – Electronic Gaming Machines (K.S.A. 74-8758)
- Manipulating Electronic Gaming Machine Games or Lottery Facility Games (K.S.A. 74-8759)
- Unlawful Wagering (K.S.A. 74-8760)
- Restrictions on State and Local Officials and Affiliated Persons (K.S.A. 74-8762)
- Crimes Under the Kansas Pari-mutuel Racing Act related to the following areas:
- Disclosure of Confidential Information (K.S.A. 74-8804)
- Unlawful Prohibited Acts (K.S.A. 74-8810)

Yes, for Raffles. No, for other charitable gambling (except bingo). During the 2014 legislative session, the legislature passed a resolution that was submitted to voters during the November 4, 2014 election to decide whether to amend the Kansas constitution to legalize raffles for certain non-profit organizations. Voters passed the measure by an overwhelming majority: 597,113 (75%) for the measure, versus 203,092 (25%) against. During the 2015 legislative session, lawmakers passed legislation to decriminalize and regulate raffles for certain non-profit organizations. Please contact the Kansas Department of Revenue's administrator of charitable gaming (785-368-8222 option 5, then option 4 or This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.) for all questions related to charitable raffles. You can also click on this link for more information http://www.ksrevenue.org/bingoraffle.html

The KRGC is the state's coordinating agency for most questions and complaints regarding illegal gambling. That role requires the KRGC to employ educational, administrative and law enforcement methods to maintain the integrity of gaming in Kansas and to help curtail illegal gaming.
From its educational perspective, the KRGC provides information to the public about illegal gaming issues. Several of the more frequently asked illegal gaming questions and responses are detailed below.
From its administrative perspective, the KRGC works with the Kansas Lottery, the Department of Revenue, other state agencies, and local law enforcement in seeking compliance from individuals and businesses on illegal gaming issues.

From its law enforcement perspective, the KRGC supports local law enforcement efforts to curtail illegal gambling. In certain instances, the KRGC directs its own limited resources to the state's most vulnerable areas and to those gambling investigations that are of state-wide concern.

Illegal gambling is pervasive throughout the state. Kansas needs the help of its citizens to identify those individuals or organizations that are engaged in illegal gambling activities. If you believe someone in your community is conducting an illegal gambling operation, you should notify your local police department or county sheriff. If you are aware of any illegal gambling device being operated, stored or sold in the State of Kansas, you should notify your local police department or county sheriff and the Kansas Racing and Gaming Commission.

Unsanctioned gambling in Kansas is illegal. “Gambling” is making a bet. “Gambling” is also entering a gambling place with intent to make a bet, with intent to participate in a lottery, or with intent to play a gambling device. The crime of gambling applies to the gambler. Unsanctioned gambling in Kansas is a class B nonperson misdemeanor, which upon conviction can result in a sentence of up to six months in jail, a fine of up to $1,000.00, or both. See K.S.A. 21-6404.

See K.S.A. 21-6403 for definitions of “bet,” and “gambling place.” See below for explanations of “lottery,” and “gambling device.”

“Commercial gambling” in Kansas is illegal. It is a crime that applies to the promoter of the gambling activity and to the proprietor of a gambling place. There are nine (9) types of activities that any individual or organization can engage in, and three activities that a property owner or property tenant can engage in, that constitute “commercial gambling.” Anyone can commit the crime of “commercial gambling” by knowingly doing any of the following:

- operating a gambling place
- receiving all or part of the earnings of a gambling place
- receiving, recording or forwarding bets or offers to bet
- intending to receive, record or forward bets or offers to bet possessing facilities to do so
- for gain, becoming a custodian of anything of value bet or offered to be bet
- conducting a lottery (see below for more information on what constitutes a “lottery”)
- intending to conduct a lottery possessing facilities to do so
- setting up any gambling device for use
- collecting the proceeds of any gambling device

The above-listed activities are all severity level 8, nonperson felonies which, upon conviction, can result in a sentence of seven to twenty-three months in jail, a fine of up to $100,000, or both. See K.S.A. 21-6406(a)(1) and (b).

“Commercial gambling” also includes activities that can cause a property owner or tenant to be guilty of commercial gambling. These activities are knowingly:

- granting the use of a place as a gambling place
- allowing the continued use of a place as a gambling place
- permitting another to set up a gambling device for use in a place under the property owner’s or tenant’s control

These three activities are all class B nonperson misdemeanors which, upon conviction, can result in a sentence of up to six months in jail, a fine of up to $1,000.00, or both. See K.S.A. 21-6406(a)(2) and (b). Examples of this type of commercial gambling activity include:

- a local hotel rents a ballroom to the organizer of a poker tournament, knowing that a poker tournament was going to be conducted there
- a local hotel rents a ballroom to the organizer of a poker tournament without knowing that a poker tournament was going to be conducted there, but while the tournament is going on, the hotel manager hears that an illegal poker tournament is being conducted in the ballroom and allows the poker tournament to continue
- a restaurant owner allows a quarter-slider machine to be installed in the front of his restaurant in exchange for twenty-five percent of the money that players put into the machine
- a local fraternal organization permits a distributor to install an illegal gambling device in the bar area of the lodge for a split of the revenue

Certain bingo operations are legal in Kansas. Bingo conducted at state licensed and regulated, non-profit bingo parlors is legal. Illegal bingo operation is:

- the knowing management of games of bingo in violation of state laws;
- the knowing operation of games of bingo in violation of state laws;
- the knowing conduct of games of bingo in violation of state laws.

Illegal bingo operation is a crime – a class A nonperson misdemeanor – which upon conviction can result in a sentence of up to one year in jail, a fine of up to $2,500.00, or both. See K.S.A. 21-6405.

The regulation, licensing and taxing of bingo falls under the jurisdiction of the Kansas Department of Revenue. Please see the KDOR’s Bingo Handbook, prepared by the Administrator of Charitable Gaming, and found at http://www.ksrevenue.org/pdf/BingoHandbook-Complete.pdf#xml=http://search.ksrevenue.org/texis/search/pdfhi.txt?query=bingo&pr=KSRevenue&prox=page&rorder=500&rprox=500&rdfreq=500&rwfreq=500&rlead=500&rdepth=0&sufs=0&order=r&cq=&id=4f5727c511 .

A lottery is “an enterprise wherein for a consideration the participants are given an opportunity to win a prize, the award of which is determined by chance.” See K.S.A. 21-6403(b). A lottery, therefore, is an activity that has the elements of consideration, chance, and prize. The most common lottery is a raffle. Lotteries conducted by the State of Kansas and by tribal gaming operators are legal. Licensed charitable raffles and bingo are legal as well. All other lotteries are illegal.

Many different games and activities that some people may not think of as being a lottery actually are. These activities include raffles conducted by for-profit organizations, individuals and unqualified non-profits, poker games, poker runs, duck races, Dime-O and Quartermania, just to name a few.

“Consideration” under the Kansas criminal statute is anything that is a “commercial or financial advantage to the promoter [sponsor] or a disadvantage to any participant.” K.S.A. 21-6403(c). In most cases, consideration is the money paid to play, but consideration can also be in the form of an indirect payment to a promoter or the increase in business that the promoter or sponsor of an event will experience through its sponsorship of the lottery. Some examples of consideration taken from Kansas court cases or that have facts similar to court cases include:

A patron pays a $5 cover charge to gain entrance to a bar that has a band and also has a poker game going on. Once the patron pays the cover charge, he may hang out, listen to the band, and/or play poker for cash and prizes without paying anything extra for poker chips. The $5 cover charge is “consideration” to the bar owner for the poker game even though not everyone played poker and the cover charge was required of everyone to enter the bar.
A bar owner conducts a poker tournament in his bar and gives the players free chips to play poker for the opportunity to win money or other prizes. The bar owner receives “consideration” in the form of increased business that will be received when some of the patrons buy food or drinks (he gained a “financial advantage”).
A poker room allows players to play poker for free, but they must rent a chair if they want to sit down and play. If they don’t rent a chair, they can still play but they must stand up to play. The poker room owner receives “consideration” in the form of chair rental. He did not receive consideration from those who stood, but he received consideration from those who paid the chair rental and sat down. The person who paid chair rental and played poker for the chance to win a prize committed the crime of gambling, and the poker room owner committed the crime of commercial gambling.
A non-profit organization conducts a poker run. Participants donate $20 dollars to go on the ride. Multiple stops are scheduled along the way. At each stop on the ride, the participant is given a playing card that will, after several stops, form a poker hand. The participant who has the best hand at the end of the run wins a donated television. All proceeds go to the charity. The $20 dollar donation for the ride is “consideration” because the payment is a disadvantage to the participant and a financial advantage to the promoter of the poker run.

A raffle is the simplest form of a lottery. Sequentially numbered tickets are sold. A ticket with a corresponding number is placed into a container. A ticket is drawn out of the container and the person holding the winning number claims their prize. The money given for the ticket is “consideration.” The “chance” happens when a ticket is drawn at random out of the container and someone wins by chance or luck. The “prize” element is satisfied when the person holding the winning ticket claims whatever prize or money is awarded. Generally, the purpose of a raffle is to make money. This only happens if some tickets are sold. Giving tickets for free to some participants does not make a raffle legal if other tickets are sold that make the overall raffle an illegal lottery.

Remember, not all raffles are illegal. If a raffle is conducted by the State, a tribal Government, or a qualified non-profit organization, it is legal. However, all other raffles are illegal, including those conducted by a for-profit organization, an individual, or a non-qualified charitable organization.

In a drawing, the element of “consideration” is missing. For example, if you go to a restaurant for a meal and then, while paying for your dinner at the cash register, you drop your business card in a fish bowl with the hope of winning a free meal when a name is drawn out of the bowl, you have entered a drawing. If you go to a trade show and, for no additional payment, drop your business card in the bowl at each vendor’s booth with the hopes of winning one of their products, you have entered a drawing.

A “gambling device” is a machine that is “designed, manufactured or altered primarily for use in connection with gambling…(i) [w]hich when operated may deliver, as the result of chance, any money or property; or (ii) by the operation of which a person may become entitled to receive, as the result of chance, any money or property….” See K.S.A. 21-6403(e)(1)(B).

A “gambling device” is also defined as “a so-called slot machine” or “any other machine, mechanical device, electronic device or other contrivance an essential part of which is a drum or reel with insignia thereon, and: (i) which when operated may deliver, as the result of chance, any money or property; or (ii) by the operation of which a person may become entitled to receive, as the result of chance, any money or property.”

Certain subassemblies and parts used in connection with these machines are also considered gambling devices.

Further, “any token, chip, paper, receipt or other document which evidences, purports to evidence or is designed to evidence participation in a lottery or the making of a bet” is also considered to be a gambling device. This would include poker chips, raffle tickets, tokens used in lieu of chips or coins and other items.

So-called “sweepstakes machines” and “phone card machines” are illegal gambling devices. If an electronic machine purports to enter the player in a sweepstakes or to sell merchandise like a long-distance phone card in exchange for one dollar, but then also allows the person to play a game of chance that may deliver a prize, that machine is a gambling device if the people play to win credit for merchandise in the store, for drinks or food at the bar, for cash, or for tickets that can be redeemed for merchandise, drinks, food or cash.

The definition of “gambling device” expressly excludescertain machines that are not designed and manufactured primarily for use in connection with gambling. These machines are commonly referred to as “amusement devices.” Examples under the statute include a coin-operated bowling alley, shuffleboard, marble machine, pinball machines, mechanical guns, claw devices, digger machines, crane machines and other similar games. All of these games are typically games that do not operate like slot machines, have some element of skill, and do not deliver prizes or they deliver prizes of inconsequential value (like a trinket or stuffed toy.)

A good rule of thumb is that if the machine operates like a slot machine or a video poker machine, you pay money to play, and you have the chance to win money or a ticket that you can cash in for merchandise, money, food or drinks, then it is probably an illegal gambling device. If you put your money in, you play the game, and all you get in return is fun playing the game, the chance to put your initials in the “high score” spot, or a cheap toy or trinket, it is probably an amusement device.

There are several State crimes related to gambling devices, including:

- Entering or remaining in a gambling place with intent to play a gambling device (a form of gambling)
- 'Commercial gambling'
- Dealing in gambling devices
- Unlawful possession of a gambling device
- Installing communication facilities for gamblers

See K.S.A. 21-6403, et seq. for more information.

Are Quater Pushers legal?
Quarter pushers are illegal gambling devices under the Kansas criminal statutes. In fact, every state that has considered the legality of quarter pushers has concluded that quarter pushers are illegal gambling devices. U.S. v. Two (2) Quarter Fall Machines; 767 F.Supp. 153 (E.D. Tenn. 1991); Mississippi Gaming C'ssn v. Henson, 800 So. 2d 110 (Miss. 2001); see also State of Indiana v. Maillard, 695 N.E. 2d 637 (Ind. App. 1998). No cases have determined that the machines are legal.
Additionally, at least six Attorneys General have determined that quarter pushers are illegal gambling devices. Ark. A.G. Opinion No. 2007-247; Miss. Op. Atty. Gen. No. 2008-19; 2007 Oklahoma Inf. Op.; S.C. Op. Atty. Gen. No. 1978-201; S. Dakota Op. Atty. Gen No. 2008-04; 1978 Tex. Atty. Gen. Op. H-1153. To be clear, no Attorneys General have provided a formal opinion that these devices are legal.
Finally, the legal outcome in those cases and opinions match our experts' analysis of these illegal gambling devices. See Gaming Laboratories International August 18, 1998 letter to Missouri Highway Patrol. Of course, there are criminal ramifications to wagering on, possessing or dealing in illegal gambling devices. K.S.A. 21-6403 et seq. Further, illegal activity can jeopardize any administrative licenses that a business may hold.

(Download the video )

As with other potential illegal gambling devices, a few rules show that these machines can generally be considered illegal gambling devices under the Kansas criminal statutes.
Under the criminal statutes, a 'gambling device' includes machines that are 'designed, manufactured or altered primarily for use in connection with gambling, and (i) which when operated may deliver, as the result of chance, any money or property, or (ii) by the operation of which a person may become entitled to receive, as the result of chance, any money or property.' K.S.A. 21-6403(e)(1)(B). Devices that use tokens for wagers may fit into the gambling device definition. Id. at (e)(1)(D). And the fact that a prize is not automatically paid by the device does not change its gambling device status. Id.
Under Kansas law, there are potential criminal ramifications to wagering on, possessing or dealing in illegal gambling devices or conducting commercial gambling. K.S.A. 21-6404 and 21-6406 to 21-6409.
Of course, you should contact your own counsel for specific guidance with respect to a particular machine.

In 2015, the Kansas legislature excluded fantasy sports leagues from the definition of a 'bet' if the league meets certain conditions. To determine if your fantasy sports league is excluded from the definition of a 'bet', compare it to the definition of Fantasy Sports League found in K.S.A. 21-6403(d):

'Fantasy sports league' means any fantasy or simulation sports game or contest in which no fantasy or simulation sports team is based on the current membership of an actual team that is a member of an amateur or professional sports organization and that meets the following conditions:

(1) All prizes and awards offered to winning participants are established and made known to the participants in advance of the game or contest and their value is not determined by the number of participants or the amount of any fees paid by those participants;

(2) all winning outcomes reflect the relative knowledge and skill of the participants and are determined predominantly by accumulated statistical results of the performance of individual athletes in multiple real-world sporting events; and

(3) no winning outcome is based:

(A) on the score, point spread or any performance or performances of any single real-world team or any combination of such teams; or

(B) solely on any single performance of an individual athlete in any single real-world sporting event.

Concerns or questions? Email us at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Hay fields, vegetable gardens, and slot machines: There are several milestones that mark the timeline of tiny Garden City. This four mile burg, surrounded by much larger cities like Boise, has had a stop-and-start history.

Click 'play' to hear the radio version of this story.

The early history of Garden City is hard to come by. We do know the land caught the eye of the U.S. Army in 1863; Idaho historian Susan Stacy says that’s when soldiers came to the Treasure Valley to build Fort Boise. And with the Army came hungry horses.

“There was this big island in the Boise River and it was called Government Island because the Army assigned that land, 600 or 700 acres, to growing hay for the horses the Army had with it,” Stacy says.

The channel of the Boise River was different back then, and Government Island included the area where Garden City sits today. Over time, the government had less use for horses, and no longer needed a hay reserve. Stacy says in 1884, the Army started selling off Government Island.

Around this time, a man named Tom Davis came to Boise to mine gold in the Boise Basin. Stacy says he quickly branched out, buying up land, planting apple trees and vegetables, and selling them to residents. He also got in the cattle business in the 1880’s. Like the Army, he needed a place to grow hay, so in 1888 Davis got interested in Government Island.

“So he started assembling that land, he started buying parcel by parcel by parcel,” says Stacy. “And by 1890, he had assembled about 650 acres, which is the majority of what we now know as Garden City.”

Davis set up the Government Island Ranch and started growing hay. Stacy says Davis was not only an entrepreneur, but he had friends who happened to be Chinese. This was during a time when the Chinese were not treated well by most whites.

“I don’t think he shared the denigration or the prejudice,' Stacy says. 'I think he admired their enterprise and admired their work and their results.'

Many of the Chinese had been drawn to the area's gold mines in the 1860’s. The immigrants found little gold so some turned instead to farming. Davis leased some of his land to Chinese gardeners.

“That’s where the reputation of the Chinese Gardens in Garden City began because they were enterprising their leased parcels,” Stacy says.

Davis died in 1908 and his children took over the estate. They initially kept the ranch and the arrangement with Chinese farmers continued. Idaho historian Arthur Hart says Chinese gardeners made a good living in the area.

But over time, the ranch was sold off and the Chinese gardeners began to disappear. But Hart says they left an indelible stamp on Garden City.

“So when they named their streets, Chinden Boulevard is a contraction of Chinese Garden.”

The next notable chapter in Garden City's history came in 1947. The Idaho Legislature passed a law allowing “coin operated amusement devices” - otherwise known as slot machines.

“The legislature in its wisdom, decided to allow local option on gambling,” Hart explains.

Any city or incorporated village could get a license from the state and start gambling. Boise voted against slots. But Hart says some saw an opportunity in the land just west of Boise.

“Some really smart guys decided ‘O.K., we’ll start our own town and then you and me and Charlie are going to vote in local option and we’re going to go for gambling.’ So they did,” says Hart.

And with that, Garden City was born in 1949. The town quickly became a mecca for gamblers.

Hart remembers driving to Garden City with friends.

“Not to gamble, but to take advantage of the strawberry shortcake (for) five cents, stuff like that,” Hart remembers. “They were giving it away to get people in the door.”

Garden City began to thrive. The Circle M, Hi Ho Club and others like them sat right next door to much bigger Boise, drawing customers who couldn’t find slots just a few miles away in the capital city.

Garden City government got a cut of the profits from slots and put them to good use. An August 1951 article in Life Magazine showed that soon there was a $10,000 park and playground, a new water system, city hall, and a police force - all paid for by gambling.

But Hart says the honeymoon ended in 1953.

“Somebody noticed the constitution and that the Legislature had no power to go against the constitution without amending the constitution, which they didn’t. At that time, gambling was still illegal.”

There were those in Idaho who considered slot machines immoral. That lead to the lawsuit. It went all the way to the Idaho Supreme Court. The Court ruled that slot machines were lotteries and lotteries were illegal under the Idaho Constitution, along with being ‘a well-recognized evil and mischief.’

Any building where gambling took place was declared ‘a moral nuisance’ and had to be closed down. Garden City would have to reinvent itself or risk going out of business.

The city responded by becoming more business friendly. City leaders relaxed building codes, leading to a mish-mash of homes and businesses. The city welcomed all types of business, even the less desirable ones. This included junkyards, slaughterhouses, nightclubs and adult bookstores. It all lead to Garden City earning the nickname, ‘Saturday Night Town.’

“They thought we had a prostitute behind every bush,' says longtime resident Donna 'D.J.' Conn. 'They called us, and I won’t say this again, but they called us Garbage City.”

Conn has lived in the city since 1956. She worked for the local newspaper, got into politics, and is a champion of the community. Her family was originally attracted by the cheap land, and relaxed building codes.

“You could buy a 50-by-150-ft. lot for $100 down, it cost $1000,' Conn says. 'And you could pay $10 a month if you wanted to.'

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She and her husband bought land and started raising kids. Her daughter, Patricia, grew up in Garden City in the 1960’s. Patricia says the city had a rough and ready reputation during this period.

“Nothing was regulated and people liked that,' Patricia says. 'Here you could come on down with your chickens and your horses and your pigs and whatever. You could get a tarpaper house going. Slowly Garden City got out of that.'

The 1970s were a decade of mobile home parks. Houses from the 40’s were torn down to make way for mobile homes. Families moved in and decided to stay. Patricia says priorities changed, and over time, the city added more regulations.

“Garden City grew up very slowly, and sometimes with a lot of kicking and cussing,' she says. 'But we grew up the way we wanted to and it was because people got involved in their government.'

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Her mother and father were pioneers in city government, serving on the city council and planning and zoning commission.

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By the 80’s, Garden City was sprucing up. Over the last 25 years, the city has made an effort to develop new housing, especially along the Boise River. The city also kept close ties to local businesses, encouraging them to grow.

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Donna Conn says there are still growing pains, but more people are taking pride in Garden City.

“It’s a good place and people are coming in and we’re enjoying the town,” Donna Conn says.

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